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Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 4:35 pm Post subject: Re: Has this stalled?
Mansfield Toon wrote:
Has this stalled
Like a woman in a motor. _________________ TWIST MAGIC. Obstacles can't stop you. Problems can't stop you. Most of all other horses can't stop you. Only you can stop you.
I was interested to see how few people are actually really interested - interested enough to take an active part, make an effort to get to meetings and so on. If there is really to be a forum horse, then it has got to be more than one person contributing to organising it, and people can't just treat it as an easy way of becoming an owner cheaply. Some effort has to be forthcoming from all potential members. I don't see any evidence that such effort is likely to be made FROM ENOUGH PEOPLE TO JUSTIFY MY TAKING THIS ANY FURTHER IN TERMS OF A "WHOLE HORSE" OWNED JUST BY ONE SYNDICATE. In addition, I have got news that at least two potential contributors have now gone ahead off their own bat and joined another syndicate which is more convenient geographically for them than the trainers we were talking about.
However, that is not the end of the story. There are possible alternatives. One is to take a half-share in a horse, with the other half being retained by the trainer (I know that Richard Lee, for example would be open to such an idea). This would cut down the number of people having to contribute (see costings). What really felled the "whole horse" idea was that there were simply not enough people willing to commit the amount of money and monthly fees to make it viable.
Another is for those who are able financially to join an existing group such as Favourites Racing (which is Falbrav's group) and pool the available resources to take as many shares in a Favourites Racing horse as the money allows.
I have come to the conclusion that the commitment, both in money and time, from enough of us to have a "whole horse" in our own syndicate isn't there - but as above, that might not be the end of it.
There is another problem. I started this during a period when I was at home a great deal more than I can foresee in the future (with projects in Ukraine and Rwanda already on the books and possibly in Romania furthr down the road.) If we are to take this any further, at all, I need a couple of volunteers to do stuff while I am away. I'm sure you all realise that a good number of syndicates have a full-time manager who either gets paid or rewarded in other ways!
So that is the situation as it stands now. I have to say that having the cooling off period (which was deliberate) was interesting - very few if any queries about what was happening, contributions, ideas and so on. The whole horse syndicate is either a commitment or not - in this case, it appears, not. But let's not dismiss other ideas.
my own view, for what it is worth, is that to cut out a lot of work for me and/or co-managers, going into something like Favourites Racing might be the ideal answer.
I'd be interested in everyones' thoughts, now that Christmas and the New Year have gone. _________________ UNEXPECTED WINNER 2009 FLAT 10 TO FOLLOW COMPETITION!
OK BHL, thanks for that. Let me revisit the people who have expressed interest before, and see what happens. When you say ownership what do you mean - shares in a syndicate/co-ownership group, sole ownership or with one or two others, membership of racing club or something similar? I know what you mean by changing circumstances - I was well off last year, but the taxman took a HUGE whack out of me this year and I would now be struggling to make syndicate payments! _________________ UNEXPECTED WINNER 2009 FLAT 10 TO FOLLOW COMPETITION!
BHL, fine. Noted and will pursue (probably with Richard) whose yard is small enough to be reasonably flexible about arrangements (he does reasonably well in mid-week lower-class racing. Unless we get hugely lucky and I buy the next Best Mate by accident at the sales we can't expect something that will run in the top races - but I am as happy to be an owner of a horse running in a novice hurdle at Ludlow or Catterick as I am of a horse with a hot chance in the Gold Cup!) _________________ UNEXPECTED WINNER 2009 FLAT 10 TO FOLLOW COMPETITION!
Im still definitely interested but unfortunately I am situated in Newcastle which means it near on impossible to go to any meetings all the way down south :/ _________________ All aboard the Miliband Wagon
The cost would depend on how many and how many "shares". There are full costings, including detailed breakdowns of different charging schemes, on the finance thread.
Basically, if the trainer retains 50% ownership and the rest is shared, the cost is either the same as a full share in 100% ownership but paid for by less people, or say half the cost if the same number of people have shares as would have had in the 100% option. You divide 100% either by 12 or by 6 or by 20 to get the costs, for example, or 50% divided similarly. We were looking at 100% ownership shared by (possibly) up to 40 people to cut the costs to the individual. This wasn't working. There weren't enough potential members to cover all the possible liabilities (and they are considerable!) Never mind the problematic nature of dealing with 40 people who might have different locations, ability to pay and so on (see the problems set out in my long previous post).
Also, anyone interested will need to meet face to face - to be honest I am not prepared to commit my time (and money!) to an arrangement that involves people who hide behind the internet (that isn't aimed at you, by the way, but I have had serious struggles to get people to come to meetings etc - and I suspect that for the most part this is laziness; but keeping a racehorse isn't like paying your BT bill There is a financial liability that can only be dealt with by setting up a direct debit - otherwise, oh yes, we can all be jolly owners but, dear me, I really haven't got the money this month.....Doesn't work, at least not in my book!
As a matter of fact, Richard Lee is more midlands than south - but the problem with trainer location is that wherever he/she is, some forum members will lose out (if in the south, the northeners, if in the north the southerners - which was a main point of difficulty!)
Now here's a thought - what about members who are genuinely interested and CAN pay something on a regular basis clubbing together to take shares in an established syndicate arrangement, such as Favourites Racing or Horses First? Some syndicates are rather dodgy (and so are Racing Clubs, which do NOT, by and large, give members a financial interest in the horse in question - as members of Elite discovered!) I use Favourites and Horses First as examples because two forum members are members respectively, and they only have good things to say about both. Horses First is interesting because it's the one that runs horses barefoot, and also forbids the use of the whip - so ideal for welfarists! They both have decent websites so have a look and see what you think. The important thing is to read the small print (eg terms and conditions!!)
This has the advantage that everyone can join in according to ability to pay (the money being pooled to buy one or more shares in a syndicate horse), and there is some cushion against people dropping out because of changed financial circumstances. It would still need a monthly direct debit, but the advantage is that people could contribute according to how much they can afford - as before, owners' privileges etc would be distributed equally disregarding the size of contribution - as I think that this is the only way to do it - hard luck if those who pay least get the most privileges because of their location, for example!
Favourites and also I think Horses First do ask for a capital contribution up front, as well.
Thoughts, anyone?
Hope this has answered most of your questions, Neal. As you probably realise, it's a bit more complicated than just paying out for a share! _________________ UNEXPECTED WINNER 2009 FLAT 10 TO FOLLOW COMPETITION!
jen, I have just had a look at Favourites Website and they are priced way out of my league, if circumstances change I would love to do it, that Cozzene colt looks lovely.
Seren, sorry I didn't pick up on this when you posted - for some reason the little orange flag didn't work and I didn't think to peer at the "latest post" bit!
I honestly don't think this one is going to run - even if we go 50% with a horse with the trainer retaining a 50% interest, the response doesn't seem positive enough to make it worthwhile going on.
I think a lot of people thought it was going to be a cheap and easy way to become an owner, with someone else doing the work. That would be fine, but in the end there is a limit to how much a volunteer can take on, and no-one seemed prepared to come forward to take my place if it ever became necessary, or lend a hand, which was a pity.
The plus side is that I, and others if they care to read all the threads on here, have learned an awful lot about what ownership entails. Like lots of other things, in the end it comes down to money. If you can afford it it's easy - if you have to squeeze for every penny it isn't!
_________________ UNEXPECTED WINNER 2009 FLAT 10 TO FOLLOW COMPETITION!
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