NoDough
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Carlos where does he play ?With the Berbie signing imminent, the options appear to be Rooney playing off Berbie in a 4-4-2, no room for Carlos there then
If they play a 4-2-3-1, Berbie up top, Rooney and Ronaldo (yes I know)
and one other Nani or Giggs, no room for Carlos there then
4-3-3 now that's a possbility with Carlos playing in a close left sided position in the front three
Or are Man U now not going to sign him ?
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Owl of Minerva
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I'm not sure Ferguson will be too bothered about playing all 3 at once all the time - will most likely just play 2 of Berbatov, Rooney, Ronaldo at any one time. Plus with injuries, suspensions etc he'll have his mind made up for him more often than not so he'll probably only have to 'bench' one of the three players about 20-30 times between them over the season which they'll be able to put up with. But I agree that Tevez will be the one to miss out most regularly. I think he'll get enough action to keep him happy. It's not that hard to keep 3 top class strikers happy IMO. It only becomes really diffiuclt woith 4+.
ps; As for position (which is what you were actually asking!) I think you have it about right - he'll be one of 2 up top or one of the 3 in behind a single one. He and Rooney are again going to have a pretty 'make shift' season and have to fill in the gaps when required as Berba will obviously never play as one of the 3 attacking mids.
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geordie_racer
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berbatov is being pursued with vigour now because manu have injury issues
when everyone is fit he will be on the bench
I love man u because of the way they are laways bringing their young players through in this way
has giggs not retired yet?
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accajacca
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| geordie_racer wrote: | berbatov is being pursued with vigour now because manu have injury issues
when everyone is fit he will be on the bench
I love man u because of the way they are laways bringing their young players through in this way
has giggs not retired yet? |
i'd be very surprised if berbatov is on the bench. when he wants to be he is an outrageous talent.
i can't tell if you're being facetious about the man u youth system. surely you can't criticise a system that has produced the players it has in the last 20 years?!
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Darren
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| accajacca wrote: |
i can't tell if you're being facetious about the man u youth system. surely you can't criticise a system that has produced the players it has in the last 20 years?! |
The youth system at Man Utd got it's reputation through a freak group of youngsters all at one time, and that was almost 15 years ago now.
The myth that they have a conveyor belt of home-grown talent is ludicrous. In fact, most of the youth work is tapping up youngsters at other clubs. Rooney, Ronaldo and Nani, to name three....
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Lord Ashfordly
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Exactly, Darren. They had one truely exceptional bunch 15 years ago but in comparison have produced little since.
Ferdinand, Carrick, Hargreaves and Rooney cost a combined total of almost £100M.
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kickingkyle
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Look at the youth team players that go out to the championship etc. They dont make top class players but there still develop them. Eagles has just gone for a million we flogged Richardson for not sure how much. Lee Martin looks quality, Gibson i think it is looks good. Evans and Campbell.
As for Tevez id prefer to see him playign than Berbatov, anyone remember the Barca game? That is the type of player i like to see, one that doesnt stop chasing the ball for 90mins!
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kickingkyle
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| Lord Ashfordly wrote: | Exactly, Darren. They had one truely exceptional bunch 15 years ago but in comparison have produced little since.
Ferdinand, Carrick, Hargreaves and Rooney cost a combined total of almost £100M. |
Well thats paid dividends with a league double and the champions league then didnt it.
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Darren
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| kickingkyle wrote: | | Lord Ashfordly wrote: | Exactly, Darren. They had one truely exceptional bunch 15 years ago but in comparison have produced little since.
Ferdinand, Carrick, Hargreaves and Rooney cost a combined total of almost £100M. |
Well thats paid dividends with a league double and the champions league then didnt it. |
Chelsea also spent a load of money and won some trophies.
That's not really the point being made though, it was about the youth system not being as legendary as the media would want people to believe.
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geordie_racer
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probable first 11
van de saar
neville
ferdinand
vidic
evra
ronaldo
carrick
nani
rooney
tevez
berbatov
subs to include
kuszac
hargreaves
so thats errr Garry Neville as a youth product then
OK lots of not quite good enough subs like brown and oshea along with the remnants of the golden generation [giggs and scholes] but honestly???
By the way if anyone mentions Darren Fletcher I may explode
P.S. the clue to Berbatov is in Accajacca's post "when he wants to be". He doesn't "want" enough often enough.
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Darren
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| kickingkyle wrote: | Look at the youth team players that go out to the championship etc. They dont make top class players but there still develop them. Eagles has just gone for a million we flogged Richardson for not sure how much. Lee Martin looks quality, Gibson i think it is looks good. Evans and Campbell.
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Most clubs do this and produce similar standards of player, it doesn't mean the youth system is exceptional.
That youth team of the 90's would never have ended up in the Championship, and thats an example of how special it was.
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NoDough
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Today for a home-grown youth player to break into the Man U first 11 he has to be a truly top player, the bar has been raised big time
Step forward the Fletch 
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geordie_racer
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| NoDough wrote: | Today for a home-grown youth player to break into the Man U first 11 he has to be a truly top player, the bar has been raised big time
Step forward the Fletch |
I've exploded
[see above]
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Owl of Minerva
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| geordie_racer wrote: |
ronaldo
carrick
nani
rooney
tevez
berbatov
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This is effectively a 4-1-5! Nani and Ronaldo as 2 of 3 midfielders - unbalanced IMO. I think you need to be playing at least 2 out of Hargreaves, Carrick, Anderson and Scholes
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Darren
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| Owl of Minerva wrote: | | geordie_racer wrote: |
ronaldo
carrick
nani
rooney
tevez
berbatov
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This is effectively a 4-1-5! Nani and Ronaldo as 2 of 3 midfielders - unbalanced IMO. I think you need to be playing at least 2 out of Hargreaves, Carrick, Anderson and Scholes |
Thats quite an array of tapped-up talent....... 
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geordie_racer
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| Owl of Minerva wrote: | | geordie_racer wrote: |
ronaldo
carrick
nani
rooney
tevez
berbatov
|
This is effectively a 4-1-5! Nani and Ronaldo as 2 of 3 midfielders - unbalanced IMO. I think you need to be playing at least 2 out of Hargreaves, Carrick, Anderson and Scholes |
go along with that
so thats 2 out of 15 "youth product" players of which the younger is Garry Neville
As bad as Chelsea and Arsenal and look at the abuse ferguson heaped on them.
i rest my case.
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Lord Ashfordly
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It really made me laugh during the title run in for 2006/07 when Ferguson tried to mainpulate the media and project United as this bunch of hard-up, home grown team up against the billionaires of Chelsea who spend millions to get players. Kettle, pot, black...
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Darren
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Oh, and before I get accused otherwise, I actually like United and the type of football they play.
But I have an issue with rewriting history.
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kickingkyle
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Like iv said RE the topic which got overlooked in my post, id prefer Tevez than Berbatov. Id also prefer to see Anderson as a regular than Nani, Anderson looks the business.
The youth system may have history but with or without they are still succesfull, maybe its the way footballs going. Until the FA bring something into player i dont see why any club should have to change there ways.
At least like some clubs we do buy the odd English player and not 30 year old foreign has beens.
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Lord Ashfordly
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These other clubs buy 30 year-old foreign has-beens because they can't afford the young twenty-something English starlets.
I'm sure 99% of other teams would have bought Carrick, Hargreaves, Rooney and Ferdinand and won the league with them as well had they not been priced out by Man Utd and Chelsea.
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geordie_racer
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Correct, my Lord
Great manager though Ferguson has been his skill now is in moulding and motivating ready-made talent
Benitez can't do that as effectively which is why Liverpool can't keep pace
It isn't about finding youngsters any more; it's about buying product.
Hey-ho.
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lewijay
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| geordie_racer wrote: | Correct, my Lord
Great manager though Ferguson has been his skill now is in moulding and motivating ready-made talent
Benitez can't do that as effectively which is why Liverpool can't keep pace
It isn't about finding youngsters any more; it's about buying product.
Hey-ho. |
I can't agree with this bit about Benitez totally, although you have a point.
It is a fact that Liverpool cannot afford to spend as much, so the ready made talent that united buy are usually 5-10 mil more expensive than Liverpools and the rest bar Chelsea. Which you would normally expect to be a better product in the first place. Obviously not always the case though.
Personally for me as good as Berbatov is, i would also prefer Tevez. Leaves it all on the field which is not something that could be said of the other fella.
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ngreggors
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Just give Spurs the £30million and then they can try & rebuild their front 2 by raiding the Spanish and/or Russian leagues!!
I hope Berbatov is a huge flop at United.
I also hope Keane fails to win anything at Liverpool. And he better not kiss that badge when he scores for them either.
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Lord Ashfordly
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I couldn't believe the Keane fee!!!! Seemed astronomically high.
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Darren
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| lewijay wrote: |
I can't agree with this bit about Benitez totally, although you have a point.
It is a fact that Liverpool cannot afford to spend as much....... |
Correction.....Benitez has spent plenty. Just because Liverpool are skint this summer doesn't mean they haven't spent shedloads in the last 2 years.
Since the start of 2006.....
Torres 20m, Keane 20m, Benayoun 5m, Babel 11.5m, Skrtel 6m, Mascherano 18m, Lucas 6m, Kuyt 9m, Agger 5.8m, Bellamy 6m, Pennant 6.7m.
This doesn't take into account the masses of average players he has also spunked money on. The fact is that he buys lots of players of this price range rather than top of the range buying. I see that as his choice.
Before this summer, the figures were as follows for the previous four seasons......(easily found on Google)
Liverpool - 32 players in, at a cost of just over 125 million.
Man Utd - 18 players in, at a cost of 138 million.
As with the Man Utd youth system myth, just doing my bit so that history isn't rewritten when Benitez starts moaning about not being backed.
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lewijay
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Well played Darren, quite the effort there mate. Still cannot agree. I never said he has not had money to spend or does not spend when given. He clearly does, i would also be a little interested in how much he has recuperated from sales.
The turn over of players has been quite high i would hazard a guess compared to Man united. The point i am trying to make is, i do not think we can compete with Man united or Chelsea at the top end of the market even if he has spent almost just as much overall when looking at your figures. Also Man United are just adding the odd player or two to an already very highly talented bunch of players under a settled manager who has been in the chair for 20 years. whilst Benitez has been trying to do things his way and is taking a bitt too long to get there. Although 5th season in charge this season and he has done better than Fergie did at this stage of his early United days
I agree there have been some badly average players brought in and sold on, Benitez is a bit of an Arthur Daly if you ask me. Eventually he may afford a Ferarri but at present has to settle for VW golf.
Although i think this summer has seen a slight change in Benitez thinking. Keane is an established PL player who can score goals, price a little high? They all are nowadays when you want to buy from other PL teams.
I think another factor may be the wages of the top end of the player market. Although i am again not privvy to all the facts in this area either.
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Darren
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Good post.
I agree on Keane, but we'll see how it works. I can't for the life of me see where he fits in with a first 11. Anyway, from same source, players out over previous four seasons.....
Liverpool - 34 players out, at a cost of 70 million
Man Utd - 26 players out, total cost of 65 million
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NoDough
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Where do United get their money from ...... I remember the people who like to watch open attractive football with an end product
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ngreggors
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by being the best supported club in the world maybe?
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lewijay
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| Darren wrote: | Good post.
I agree on Keane, but we'll see how it works. I can't for the life of me see where he fits in with a first 11. Anyway, from same source, players out over previous four seasons.....
Liverpool - 34 players out, at a cost of 70 million
Man Utd - 26 players out, total cost of 65 million |
wow i must admit to being a little surprised at United but not so much on Liverpool.
Either way i think this season has to be his target for the league as he has not really aimed to highly in his transfer targets, so i would think he is quite content with what he has. It is very hard to see past Chelsea and United again though if they can sustain last seasons form.
The Gareth Barry saga is now a complete joke, especially as you could argue that our best player pre-season has been a so called player he has tried to flog off in Alonso.
Keane may take some games to get used to playing with torres and it would obviously help if Mascherano was not on Olympic duty as he will definetly be the first choice in Centre midfield regardless of Barry coming in. What i mean is if Liverpool could pick the best first 11 possible then it would probably help him a bit more.
Looking forward to the big kick off this weekend though and the next 8/9 months of the season.
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geordie_racer
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| Darren wrote: | [
This doesn't take into account the masses of average players he has also spunked money on. . |
I knew he got excited when signing players but this is beyond what I thought
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Darren
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Indeed, everyone can be optimistic at this stage, except us Everton fans
Alonso was great last night, I was watching thinking how typical it would be if he went on and had his best ever season for you. 
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Lord Ashfordly
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The word 'optimistic' just dosen't look right in the same sentance as the words 'Everton fans'.
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geordie_racer
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| NoDough wrote: | | Where do United get their money from ...... I remember the people who like to watch open attractive football with an end product |
big support world wide
best marketing and PR in football
visiting emerging markets with [eg] Beckham just before they sell him, so people buy 2 hirts, one with Bex & and then one with er Ronaldo 7 on 'cos they're hooked!
big names, big sales of eg shirts
buying players purely for that purpose (Park equals Asian shirt sales)
Massive TV value as a result of the above
Winning EPL almost every year which generates more of the above, topped off with the odd Champions League
god, I hate them. 
you have to admire it.
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kickingkyle
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Geordie did someone hack your account? haha
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geordie_racer
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| kickingkyle wrote: | | Geordie did someone hack your account? haha |
Like I say you have to admire it.
I wish our lads had a bit of that PR nouse, we're utterly hopeless at it.
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kickingkyle
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Good inside Newcastle it seems but apart from that you dont see many NUFC supporters. To be fair thought i wouldnt want to admit to it 
Could be worse, you could support Man City!
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geordie_racer
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| kickingkyle wrote: | Good inside Newcastle it seems but apart from that you dont see many NUFC supporters. To be fair thought i wouldnt want to admit to it
Could be worse, you could support Man City! |
well if they sack their manager for only qualifying for europe, presumably sparky will be castrated at dawn for that performance?
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johnnio
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I think with the amount of rotation Fergie will do this year and the amount of games Utd will play (60+, if they do well in all competitions), Tevez, Rooney, Ronaldo, Berbatov, Nani will all play 25-30 games each. Don't believe Utd would have spent a British record £32m on Tevez for him to spend more time on the bench than anyone else this season. Reckon he'll play 3 from 5 most of the season, with Berba being the focal point most of the time.
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geordie_racer
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he's got to get someone in fast; terribly lacking in fire power today
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johnnio
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I agree, thought Newcastle were very hard-working today and was impressed by Guttierez and Collocini. Guttierez seems to lack skill, but worked his arse off throughout the whole match, I also liked the way he conducted himself. He argued once with the referee, but almost immediately apologised and that will go down well with refs over here. Keegan seems to have got a team that will work together and that'll be half the battle this year. Utd were a little lacking in firepower, but it's a bit too early to write them off.
Chelsea were pretty impressive though.
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geordie_racer
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| johnnio wrote: | I agree, thought Newcastle were very hard-working today and was impressed by Guttierez and Collocini. Guttierez seems to lack skill, but worked his arse off throughout the whole match, I also liked the way he conducted himself. He argued once with the referee, but almost immediately apologised and that will go down well with refs over here. Keegan seems to have got a team that will work together and that'll be half the battle this year. Utd were a little lacking in firepower, but it's a bit too early to write them off.
Chelsea were pretty impressive though. |
if ManU don't get someone n this week theyre in danger of falling behind Chelsea [and possibly Arsenal/Liverpool] which might be crucial
Chelsea looked very efficient yesterday
The young lad up front for Man U started well; and if his header hadn't hit given's head it might have been a very different tale
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Owl of Minerva
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Yes United's squad was pretty weak yesterday. Made use of Fletcher, O'shea, Campbell, Rafael, Possebon, Evra at left wing, and then 33yo+ Scholes and Giggs. Need to get their best players fit quickly. Contrast this to the 14 players Chelsea used yesterday. That type of squad that Man U had yesterday will drop a lot of points against mid table teams.
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